Note: In the last paragraph of my prior post I ran out to time to revise it to say the following. "A number of other times I experienced harassment (including racial insults) and threats of violence with 'worldly' people, but nothing like that with JWs or Kingdom Hall attending children of JWs (except for some harassment from one preteen child of JWs). When in a group of JWs I always felt very safe (including at district conventions) but not always when in a group of non-JWs."
Disillusioned JW
JoinedPosts by Disillusioned JW
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WT's Impact on Children
by Sea Breeze inwhat is your opinion of the wt's impact on children?.
here, children get to connect the dots and see what will happen to you if you are disobedient.
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WT's Impact on Children
by Sea Breeze inwhat is your opinion of the wt's impact on children?.
here, children get to connect the dots and see what will happen to you if you are disobedient.
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Disillusioned JW
LongHairGal, while I was a grade school child I would sometimes play outside on my block with kids from my side of the block and the ones on the opposite side of my street. Many times they would harass me (only one of them was raised by JW parents) and sometimes even try to start a fight with me, and I never knew why. I tried to get along with them. To the best I could determine it was either due to racism (I am a multiracial brown skinned person and they were all white) or because I tried to always be very good (to the best of my ability) and tried to avoid getting into fights and tried to avoid doing other things which the JW religion says is bad (such as playing with toy guns or celebrating pagan holidays or using 'foul' language).
My bedroom French windows had a latch on them to hold the windows shut but no actual lock. On many days I would have the windows open to let in cool breezes. There was a tall bush below the windows. One of the kids, a very bratty 'worldly' kid who caused troubles for me climbed up on the bush and reached out to come into the open windows! I closed the windows and he went away. Another time, but when the windows were closed, the troublesome kid not only climbed up the bush, but he also opened the windows and reached into (or nearly into) my bedroom while I was in my room! I thus pushed him away and closed the windows and then I never saw come up to my second story window again. But, one day either my Mickey Mouse watch (from my bedroom) or my sister's Minny Mouse watch was missing from the house (I forget which, maybe both happened) and I presume he stole it (or them).
One day on the grade school play ground 'worldly' kids took terms kicking my butt and when I would chase after one of them, one of them would kick me from behind. In high school a kid kept on jumping onto my back in gym. I would bend over and he would slide off my back and then get back on and the process would repeat. Why in the world did he act that way? Admittedly for a time even a Hispanic boy raised by JW parents caused me some problems, but thankfully in high school he didn't cause me any problems. In high school he was an A student.
A number of times I when I would open my high school locker (which had a built-in combination lock) I would find that some things (pencils?) were stolen from it and that some unwanted things had been put into it. I wondered how that could happen and who did it. Small things can be slid through slits on the door and the bottom and top of the door can possibly be bent open while the door it locked. Maybe the kid knew how to 'crack' the lock. I later bought a combination padlock and put it on the lock and started keeping my things in a hard to reach place of the lock (near the level of the locks) and that solved the problems. It wasn't until college that I no longer had any problems with 'worldly' people in school.
In one banking office job I had, about 10 years after I graduated from college/university, one non-JW young person (probably a non-Christian) started verbally harassing me (but carefully done in a way which probably couldn't get him in trouble, and he made himself a friend of the boss) multiple times a day after he learned I was a JW (I mentioned to him and the other two co-workers sitting close to me that I don't celebrate holidays and birthdays) - holidays and birthdays were celebrated in the workplace and thus my non-observance of such was noticeable. I think the guy was a non-Christian (and probably an atheist) because when I first met him he told me that he got a Christian woman to quit work and that I was her replacement (I and he were working through a temporary agency).
A number of other times I had problems with 'worldly' people, but hardly any problems with JWs or Kingdom Hall attending children of JWs. When in a group of JWs I always felt safe (including at district conventions) but not always when in a group of non-JWs.
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WT's Impact on Children
by Sea Breeze inwhat is your opinion of the wt's impact on children?.
here, children get to connect the dots and see what will happen to you if you are disobedient.
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Disillusioned JW
It is extremely hard for me to believe that any parent (except possibly for a extremely tiny percentage of parents) would take the entire contents of their minor child's bedroom outside as punishment. The idea is ludicrous to me that a JW parent, or any other one, would do so. Not only would the punishment be extreme, but it would be a lot of work for the parents - even if only twice (though if only twice it would be feasible). Imagine them taking dressers and bed frames outside (note that Sea Breeze twice said "everything" was taken out of his bedroom).
Sea Breeze since you say you stopped believing the WT when you "turned around 14 or 15" does that mean you never got baptized as a JW? I forget if in an older post you ever said you got baptized as a JW, though I remember that you said you were raised as a JW. I got baptized (several years after 1975) shortly before age 16.
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WT's Impact on Children
by Sea Breeze inwhat is your opinion of the wt's impact on children?.
here, children get to connect the dots and see what will happen to you if you are disobedient.
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Disillusioned JW
Correction: In my prior post when I said "... we did inhale ..." I meant to say "... we did not inhale ...".
Additional Comments: Other negative influences by the WT on me as a child (a young teen at the time) were the frequent teachings about the Great Tribulation, the Battle of Armageddon, and the New Order. That is because such teachings pressured me to get baptized soon, and as a very sad result I did get baptized. If only I had had the courage to go to the library to read books about evolution (ones presenting the scientific evidence for such) and to read atheistic books (to see if they made good arguments, including in criticisms of the Bible) I would have been saved from the WT and never got baptized. I had been thinking that maybe evolution was true, that maybe the Bible was mostly unreliable, and that maybe Jehovah God didn't even exist, and thus I had thought of seeking such books. But because of the WT's warnings, including the WT's statements that college professors teach lies against creationism/creation and the Bible, I was too scared to do such research at that time.
Even while in college/university I avoided taking courses which would teach evolution (though I was very curious about that subject) and radiometric dating (such as in geology classes), philosophy courses which might teach arguments against the existence of God, and a Bible as literature course which might criticize the Bible. Avoidance of those courses was also largely influenced by someone in my congregation saying that when JW young people go to college many of them end up loosing their religious beliefs (and by implication from a JW point of view, thus end up loosing their future prospect of living in the New Order). I heard that mentioned within a year of so before I entered college. If I had hadn't heard such I might would have taken the above courses. It was a huge mistake for me to avoid taking such courses.
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WT's Impact on Children
by Sea Breeze inwhat is your opinion of the wt's impact on children?.
here, children get to connect the dots and see what will happen to you if you are disobedient.
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Disillusioned JW
By pressuring people (including children raised by JWs) to study numerous WT literature and at JW meetings to give answers to questions of WT in way which was in agreement with the WT literature, that hindered critical thinking (when I was a child and as an adult JW) in regards to religious topics. That routine also probably hindered my critical thinking in other areas. I also believe it hindered the critical thinking of others who were children under the WT/JW influence.
In contrast, the WT influence on me when I was a child was very favorable in helping to instill strong morals in me and to also avoid doing the foolish things of many non-JW children (such as smoking or putting one's life unnecessarily in danger in other ways). My step-grandfather stopped smoking cigarettes before the WT forbade smoking, because of what he reading about the WT's view of smoking (and that one could not become and elder if one smoked). That likely very much benefited his health and the health of the rest of my JW family. It benefited the rest of us because we did inhale second-hand smoke from either of us during my lifetime (my step-grandfather probably stopped smoking before I was born since I have no memory of experiencing any of my JW family ever smoking, nor of smelling tobacco smoke in either of our homes). Also, the WT influence on me probably favorably influenced my reading skills.
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WT's Impact on Children
by Sea Breeze inwhat is your opinion of the wt's impact on children?.
here, children get to connect the dots and see what will happen to you if you are disobedient.
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Disillusioned JW
BluesBrother I notice that you said the following. "Kids love violence… it does not seem real. We had the cartoon characters doing “ Bam, Splat, Your Gone” and it was funny." I never loved violence and I never approved of it being done for unjust reasons. I don't recall ever seeing any humor in the violence in those kinds of cartoons. For a time I watched the types of cartoons you mentioned, but I never loved and never liked the violence portrayed in them. I knew the cartoons were not real and thus I was not troubled much by the content, but when I imagined hypothetically what it would mean if the violence was real then I thought such would be horrible.
In 1975 I was a preteen (enrolled in the Theocratic Ministry School) and I knew from my reading of the WT literature that the WT never said that Armageddon, the Great Tribulation, or the start of the 1,000 year portion of Christ's reign would definitely begin that year (though they did strongly suggest such was a strong likelihood). As a result, after 1975 ended I didn't consider the WT's claims about 1975 as being false prophecies or false predictions, but rather unfulfilled hopes. I got baptized as a JW several years later.
I believe that the WT's negative impact upon as a child were their false teachings about evolution, their teaching that there were no genuine contradictions in the Bible, their teachings that JWs shouldn't disagree with the WT's teachings (and not read atheistic and/or apostate literature), attend and participate in Kingdom Hall meetings and pray multiple times a day, and related matters.
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New Game: Spot Those Logic Fallacies! - "theory of evolution is 'much further from being proved than men are from flying to the moon.'"
by cognisonance ini read on here someone paraphrasing from evolution versus the new world the quote in this post's title where a scientist is quoted as saying the theory of evolution is "much further from being proved than men are from flying to the moon.
for those interested in the quoted scientist actual words, you can read them at google books.
of course the author, a chemist, is refering to the theory of evolution by natural selection, something he refers to as "percise theory," as opposed to "vague thoery," the latter he is describing the easy-to-see evidence that evolution has happened.
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Disillusioned JW
McRoberts , in the Introduction to his book called God: Can the God of the Bible Exist?, says the following.
'Today, it appears to me that God has been used by those in authority to "trick us into being good" in much the same way as Santa is used by parents on their children. What has been particularly frightening about this is how those wielding this authority throughout history have defined "good". Often their definitions have been worse than the natural behavior of the majority of the individuals they have controlled.
Beliefs ingrained in us from childhood which are carried into adulthood are seldom questioned. They seem to become almost a part of our personality. It is a bold endeavor to examine such beliefs and agree to open-mindedly attend to the arguments of a non-believer. The fact that you are reading this book indicates that you have a courageous heart searching for the truth, whatever it may be. For that, I commend you, and thank you in advance for hearing me out rather than dismissing such thoughts out of hand.'By the way, it is at https://www.smmcroberts.net/religion/fundamentalism/watchtower/fit/chap14.html that McRoberts' book about the problems of the JW religion quotes the WT's booklet called "Evolution Versus the New World" quoting Standen (though the fictional character in McRoberts' book somewhat misrepresents the quote of the Standen, by referring to evolution rather than by referring specifically to what Standen calls "the precise theory of evolution".)
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New Game: Spot Those Logic Fallacies! - "theory of evolution is 'much further from being proved than men are from flying to the moon.'"
by cognisonance ini read on here someone paraphrasing from evolution versus the new world the quote in this post's title where a scientist is quoted as saying the theory of evolution is "much further from being proved than men are from flying to the moon.
for those interested in the quoted scientist actual words, you can read them at google books.
of course the author, a chemist, is refering to the theory of evolution by natural selection, something he refers to as "percise theory," as opposed to "vague thoery," the latter he is describing the easy-to-see evidence that evolution has happened.
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Disillusioned JW
The statement of "... a quote used in 1967 ..." has me wondering what source published the quote in 1967. The WT booklet called "Evolution Versus The New World" is copyright 1950, not in 1967, though perhaps it was last printed in 1967. As a result the statement of "... and of course men flew to the moon 2 years after this booklet was pubished by the WBTS" is very puzzling to me. The WT book called Did Man Get Here By Evolution Or By Creation? is copyright 1967 but it doesn't seem to have a quote of Anthony Standen. Anthony Standen's comment is in a book of his which is copyright 1950.
Back in 1950 little had been accomplished in obtaining the ability of sending humans to the moon, thus it is understandable that Standen made the comment regarding men flying to the moon. Though Standen was a chemist according to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthony_Standen he was also an entomologist (a scientist who studies insects and thus also a life scientist). https://www.nytimes.com/1993/06/25/obituaries/anthony-standen-is-dead-at-86-chemist-who-deflated-pomposity.html says "He also held an advanced degree in entomology, the branch of zoology that deals with insects, from the University of New Hampshire.'
I agree that the WT booklet called "Evolution Versus The New World" uses faulty logic many times and that it is often distorts the ideas of the evolution and what proponents (including scientists) of evolution consider to be evidence for evolution.
As a result of looking for a quote by the WT of Standen I discovered https://www.smmcroberts.net/ by Steve McRoberts. McRoberts in his book called Falling In Truth: The Education of a Jehovah’s Witness (which can be read online for free) identifies himself as a former JW who served at Bethel (apparently for no more than two years, probably no more than about one year) "... became disillusioned, and left ..." and since then "... never set foot in a Kingdom Hall of Jehovah’s Witnesses ..." again. In that book (written in the form of a fictional story) he prevents many great arguments against the WT religion, including a number of scientific points (including claims backing evolution). The book does have some incorrect (or partially incorrect) ideas, but overall it is very informative.
Another one of McRoberts' book is called The Cure for Fundamentalism: Why the Bible Cannot be the Word of God (Also known as: Can the Bible be God's Word?), which is a commentary on parts of the Bible. It makes a number of good arguments, but it also has erroneous ideas. The book can be read online for free. In the introduction of that book the author says the following.
'I was raised a Catholic, attended Catholic school, converted to being a Jehovah's Witness, and finally disassociated from organized religion entirely. If the Bible is God's word, it should speak to the common man in easily understandable language. We should not have to rely on theologians who may tell us what they want us to believe.
In what follows, I have read through the Bible from cover to cover and given my thoughts wherever I felt it appropriate to do so. I have usually given the entire quote rather than just the reference, so that it is not necessary for the reader to have a Bible in hand while reading.
... What gives me the right to criticize the Word of God? Well, that begs the question. We must first examine the Bible to determine whether it lives up to this claim. After all, unless you have been privy to some direct vision from God, it has just been human beings that have told you that the Bible is the Word of God. Human beings have been known to be wrong in the past. You can't believe everything they say. You must at least give ear to the other side of the story before making up your mind. What gives everyone the right to do this is their free will and their faculty of reason. The Bible itself encourages us to examine it and prove it to ourselves ...'.
McRoberts also has a book called God: Can the God of the Bible Exist?
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Jehovah Witnesses lost in Court. Disfellowshipped Sister Reinstated by Court Order?
by pistolpete inimagine the "faithful" jws who are now having to talk to this person by court order or face the consequences----legally.. exjws are spreading the news and now some exjws who have been disfellowshipped for years are starting to research to see if this is an option in their country.
here are the articles, you need to translate in google.
https://www.nrk.no/norge/gry-nygard-ble-ekskludert-fra-jehovas-vitner-_-vant-i-lagmannsretten-1.15570621.
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Disillusioned JW
My previous post post was made while I thought the disfellowshipped JW had won the Supreme Court ruling of Norway, but now I am not certain she won. Parts of the ruling as translated into English are very hard for me to comprehend (especially with its use of legal jargon). One post said the congregation won but another post gave me the impression the woman won. Who really won?
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Jehovah Witnesses lost in Court. Disfellowshipped Sister Reinstated by Court Order?
by pistolpete inimagine the "faithful" jws who are now having to talk to this person by court order or face the consequences----legally.. exjws are spreading the news and now some exjws who have been disfellowshipped for years are starting to research to see if this is an option in their country.
here are the articles, you need to translate in google.
https://www.nrk.no/norge/gry-nygard-ble-ekskludert-fra-jehovas-vitner-_-vant-i-lagmannsretten-1.15570621.
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Disillusioned JW
I think there will be JW's who won't shun her. I think there are JWs who disapprove of the WT's shunning policy (including ones who want to quit the religion) and who will use the court ruling as a protective cover for them to avoid shunning the woman. The court's ruling could be the end of the WT's shunning policy in Norway and of JWs believing they will be disfellowshipped (or labeled as disassociated) if they associate with people who officially left the religion, though it probably won't end marking.